Chat10122007

From Bricowiki

IRC Chat, during Submidialogia 3, in 10/12/2007

irc.indymedia.org

#submedialogy

• efeefe [efeefe@f67919.88bc4f.9bdcd7.a0e015] has joined #submedialogy
• efeefe macaetano
• Channel created on Mon Dec 10 13:29:56 2007
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• <robvk> hello everyone, amsterdam here!
• <efeefe> barcelona here
• jerneja [jerneja@fee8b2.bb348c.25753d.e53157] has joined #submedialogy
• <macaetano> Lisbon here
• <Indra_n> Indonesia here
• <robvk> pretty early indonesia!
• <Indra_n> yeah :)
• <efeefe> or late monday... ;)
• <Indra_n> in here it's tuesday
• ian_brasil [ian_brasil@3dc69a.35bd98.ddc85a.963637] has joined #submedialogy
• <ian_brasil> ola
• <efeefe> hi Ian
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• <efeefe> we're warming up in the pt_br channel
• <efeefe> if anyone wants to check it, /join #submidialogia
• <GJ> hey all
• <efeefe> well... it's about time, innit?
• <GJ> yep
• <efeefe> so...
• <efeefe> what is the main question here?
• <efeefe> bricolabs?
• <efeefe> wtf?
• <robvk> was it not also about ways of working and decision making?
• <efeefe> could be
• <jerneja> Hi! collective action and process
• <robvk> i heard a great word lately : heterenomy, did not get it until i realized it was about ego needing to be broken then get sort of up agin, never as strong as before, as eager as highflying but still a bit closer to the ground
• <jerneja> heteronomy,non standard language?
• <robvk> not autonomous but heteronomous , still full of autonomy but seeing other autonomies on the same level
• <efeefe> and flowing from one autonomy to the others?
• <efeefe> gang power? ;)
• <Indra_n> :)
• <robvk> you got me there! i really like jamie kings text on gang grammer indeed
• <efeefe> yes, it made me understand metareciclagem in another way
• <robvk> what way? can you say a bit more?
• <jerneja> may be the power of flowing...of all the infos, all the knowledge...is that a gang power?
• <efeefe> sometimes I wonder in what extent the understanding of metareciclagem as an open network is nothing more than fiction perpetuated by half a dozen people
• <robvk> that is heraclite
• <efeefe> you know, us claiming that things are open, and the other 300+ in the mailing list just, well, letting it be
• <efeefe> because things did not start like that
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• <robvk> hey thiago talking from jaromils home in amsterdam!
• <novaes> salut rob!
• <jerneja> hello there:)
• <robvk> efeefe you mean things started with many more people?
• <efeefe> and parallel to the development of metareciclagem, many different versions of what it is have been stated
• <efeefe> started with pretty much the same number of active people
• <efeefe> then some left and at some point we started to call it "open" and tell people to do their own metareciclagem
• <efeefe> but I did not feel comfortable with the fact that those who started it had more proeminence in the network
• <jerneja> would you say it's then combined in flowing circles
• <efeefe> and would speak 'representing' hundreds
• <efeefe> but the fact is that it is not as stable as it may look from my perspective
• <robvk> because you have the agency to make and unmake no all people do
• <efeefe> and things only kept going because we would propose new collective goals that would then be accepted en eventually appropriated by toerhs
• <jerneja> yeah.is the representation that shall be the critical subject here..i think as well in Bricolabs
• <efeefe> so, the idea of dynamic, changing gangs made sense to me
• <efeefe> bricolabs still is a big question mark
• <efeefe> I see a lot of interesting people
• <jerneja> hm, yeah you are right
• <efeefe> willing to get closer
• <robvk> go go :)
• <efeefe> but most of them standing one step before engagement
• <robvk> but no cigar?
• <efeefe> why is that?
• <GJ> not really sure whats going on, thats why :)
• <robvk> because we have no clue as to what the engagement would mean, we miss the clarity of communism
• <efeefe> ;)
• <jerneja> ok, I think that we are going on :)
• <efeefe> GJ, btw, is Kruno, from Croatia, just arrived @ bricolabs
• <GJ> hi all, kruno here
• <efeefe> hey Kruno
• <jerneja> ok, I thought it was GUstaff....oookkk...hello Kruno
• <efeefe> could you try to give a picture of how it looks to arrive now?
• pajeh [pajeh@3dc69a.f89073.cfc6cd.411c7f] has joined #submedialogy
• <robvk> hi kruno hi pajeh
• <GJ> im new, so just tried to go through lines and understand, but im missing beckground of who is who here
• <GJ> oi pajeh
• <pajeh> oi
• <pajeh> kruno ?
• <pajeh> hi all!
• <GJ> :) yes
• <jerneja> HI, I'm Jerneja...DIY media studies...from Slovenia...now living in the NL
• <efeefe> then again, will we propose something to call be bricolabs or just expect for it to emerge at some point?
• <jerneja> so, Croatia...great...how are you doing?
• <Indra_n> hi all i'm indra from indonesia, as new media artist
• <jerneja> Indra..Hello...
• <efeefe> that's a good start ;)
• <efeefe> ian, you there?
• <efeefe> so, a little bit of background
• <GJ> thnx for info all. this is pretty much me: http://gentlejunk.net
• <GJ> and http://mmkamp.gentlejunk.net
• <efeefe> ~one year ago, rob kranenburg and bronac ferran were in Sao Paulo, Brasil, for mobilefest festival
• <efeefe> I was introduced to one then the other
• <efeefe> (don't remember in what order)
• <ian_brasil> opa ...yes
• <efeefe> we eventually started to write a draft of a possible exchange between brasil, UK and netherlands
• <ian_brasil> how was mobile fest
• <efeefe> from that, Rob started to invite more and more people to join
• <jerneja> cool blog you have there...circuit bending...all right
• <efeefe> at first, Matt Ratto and Jaromil said ok
• <GJ> :)
• <efeefe> and then dozens of interesting people accepted also
• <efeefe> rob, any comment?
• <robvk> i think it will emerge, the question is do we want to kick it a bit
• <robvk> :)
• <novaes> ;)
• <jerneja> http://citymedia.wordpress.com/ (mine...well...need to upload...still)
• <efeefe> and how do we do it?
• <robvk> i think you tell it well, i aws specifically coming to see you to ask
• <robvk> about where to go from the brazilian expertise of the pontos
• <efeefe> not only pontos
• <efeefe> ;)
• <robvk> and then we patched together open source hardware as the new agency
• <efeefe> metareciclagem and estudiolivre and descentro
• <efeefe> which now look more real than the cultura digital thing
• <jerneja> yeah...is Macaetano there??you did quite some research on DIY in Brazil, right?
• <efeefe> there are more and more media centers being _built_ now
• <macaetano> Jerneja, yes
• <jerneja> and Thiago, maybe can tell us a bit about the rome experience..I think ponots are a good practivce, but can't be really replicated everywhere
• <efeefe> and I think there is a redundant trend in runnig away from big cities...
• <jerneja> oh, HI :)
• <macaetano> but it's not translated into English
• <jerneja> i know...is my turn to learn Portugese...
• <jerneja> :)
• <efeefe> robvk: coming back to bricolabs... at some point, I think the nature of people arriving changed
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• <jerneja> what do you mean?
• <fr> hi?
• <efeefe> I think after you mentioned the possibility of big EU funding, some people who were not totally interested in the merit of the discussions came to the game
• <efeefe> fr?
• <fr> fernando rabelo
• <efeefe> opa
• <fr> bricolabs list
• <fr> opa
• <efeefe> ligado
• <efeefe> we're just trying to get the conversation going here
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• <efeefe> still no clue about what the question is
• <robvk> yes that is possible, as i see it there are three strands that are important, brazil, jaromil/aymeric and the ethnographers and indeed it seemed to work for a while
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• <jerneja> you are always welcome to drop me an email
• <jerneja> we are also launching a radio oltranzista here....at the end of january
• <jerneja> brate, ajd komunikacija!!!
• <efeefe> jerneja: ?
• <jerneja> brother...communication
• <jerneja> a nice exchange of language....the balkan understands that, right
• <ian_brasil> robvk: what seemed to work?
• <efeefe> I will someday ;)
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• <GJ> yep, sorry, was lost in your blog for a while there :)
• <jerneja> teh message was for GJ...if he drops to A'dam sometimes
• <efeefe> ok...
• <novaes> eita
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• <efeefe> what I feel with bricolabs is related to what happens on this chat now
• <efeefe> oi, talkim
• <efeefe> that most people are more interested in carrying on their own stuff
• <vitorio> yoyo
• <vitorio> yoyo
• <efeefe> and do not interact that much
• <vitorio> yoyo
• <efeefe> in terms of flexibilization
• <novaes> vitoria!!
• <efeefe> who's vitorio?
• <efeefe> where's Sra. Selva?
• <jerneja> well, I would say multiple chats could bring more and more flexibility...we try to get to know each other
• <efeefe> ou srta?
• <vitorio> that is what i am seeing and sensing too --we had a chat about that last night
• <ian_brasil> why don't we make a bricomeat somewhere?
• <efeefe> who's "i"?
• <vitorio> who knows!
• <vitorio> who knows!
• <efeefe> ian_brasil: meat?
• <jerneja> oookk
• <efeefe> there are some vegetarians around ;)
• <jerneja> meat...quite unsensible...but straight...thank you Ian
• <efeefe> isn't this here a bricomeat?
• <vitorio> really important i think - v here-u just helped me log on
• <robvk> ian: wat seemed to work? concrete proposals with deadlines and 2)learning from each others struggle with concepts and ideas
• <ian_brasil> oops..meet
• <jerneja> sorry
• <jerneja> no multiple in the sense of more\
• <efeefe> robvk: proposals meaning de-centralized, loosely articulated projects?
• <robvk> yes!
• <jerneja> but in the sense of this one here...one...
• <efeefe> robvk: because I have the feling that trying to push general bricolabs projects is a little premature
• <GJ> general beeing world wide?
• <novaes> is not premature... it `s against the nature of doing this...
• <robvk> yes! loosely articuated so as to bridge all cultural gaps and urgencies in different societies but still articulated by someone, some ego with a healthy sense of 'i' : to propose and step aside, but to propose
• <Indra_n> i think every pushing any general project it's premature, that's a logic
• <efeefe> robvk: I'd say to propose and not step aside
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• <robvk> damn! :)
• <efeefe> so the projects remain "personal/group" projects inside a wide bricolabs horizon
• <robvk> i agree
• <novaes> yes
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• <robvk> that is exactly true to propose and not step aside and then ten others like that
• <efeefe> for instance, I have ideas for half a dozen projects right now... wouldn't have time to develop all of them
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• <efeefe> I have been talking about some of them with some people
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• <efeefe> and it is interesting trying to understand what would make me share these ideas with the brico list
• <efeefe> sometimes things there seem so professional, as there are so many "important" people there, that I feel sharing these draft ideas there would be a little naive or ingenuous
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• <efeefe> but anyway, that's a subjective view
• <robvk> that is how i look to you :) as you are one of the important people I'd hope you d share all those ideas, in fact that is what i think people are waiting for -
• <efeefe> what about others?
• <robvk> ideas to step into, not to have an idea that they have to open a door to get in
• <GJ> im sorry but it seems that extensive drinking this weekend eat my brain and im not shure whats going on here. is bricolabs trying to organize itself as organization? something like http://www.dorkbot.org/
• <efeefe> now there are some ideas in the wiki, but we still have to work on exploring ways for people to help
• <GJ> or to develop itself worldwide on concepts of metareciklage?
• <GJ> proposal that u send me felipe?
• <jerneja> what I found interesting on the list was the contributions from projects, I would never thought about and made me realize where the processes are
• <efeefe> GJ: not quite... so far, what we have is a group of people with some interests alike... and don't know exactly what to do with it
• <efeefe> that text I sent you
• <GJ> :)
• <efeefe> has been a first manifesto
• <efeefe> but there isn't a natural follow-up to that
• <efeefe> maybe that's what we want to find out
• <efeefe> there is something the brasilian project can share with the rest of the world
• <efeefe> but that's too generic
• <ian_brasil> why not use it as a one stop shop for all thing low tech, open source and community ...people post ideas, links and projects there..like a planet
• <jerneja> constructive at this moment...with Ian's proposal
• <efeefe> GJ, what do you think of that? O que eh que brasileiro tem mais que o resto do mundo?
• <efeefe> ;)
• <GJ> ok, my legos are comming together now. mainly DIY culture, social benefit, new media art, open source
• <GJ> etc..
• <efeefe> vitorio/vicky: you there?
• <efeefe> vicky is in Lencois
• <robvk> i think that makes sense - maybe we need some nice packaging too, look at the way mit is marketing fablabs, look at bug, look at arduino, tinker, can we be aconcept 'shop' for them all?
• <GJ> nice ,, cool, in my opinion, getting to know people is my first priority,
• <GJ> than meeting and working with them
• <GJ> and than bigger picture makes itself
• <ian_brasil> then when one/or a number of good ideas, projects shine we can polish it and try to fund and/or develop them further
• <vitorio> yes!
• <vitorio> greetings indeed from lencois
• <efeefe> what would you say about brasil and all that?
• <efeefe> DIY culture, open source, community, social change, etc
• <efeefe> parties ;)
• <efeefe> ian_brasil: I'm not sure people would post all things DIY somewhere unless they know what's that all about
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• <ian_brasil> well i would go there if i could find out how to hack dynebolic onto a 770 for example..like a section on How tos and so on
• <ian_brasil> and then a section on aligned projects
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• <novaes> ok how tos for the people that can read...
• <efeefe> ian_brasil: and what would make you post "how to dyne on a 770" in bricolabs and not anywhere else?
• <efeefe> send it to hackaday or instructables or something like that?
• <macaetano> fab labs - there was an interview with Neil Gershenfeld from MIT's Center of Atoms and Bits in a Portuguese newspaper this weekend.
• <jerneja> is about DIY capacity building
• <ian_brasil> well i know people on bricolabs and i want something good to happen with it
• <macaetano> He was talking about the possibility of opening a fab lab here in Portugal
• <ian_brasil> and i know the people are really into hacking culture
• <vitorio> yes --this comes to packaging - which is crucial for the social/community engagement - and not just confining activity to academics used to high tek rhetoric
• <ian_brasil> so why not post there
• <efeefe> ian_brasil: I'm not sure if that's not creating only another instance
• <jerneja> it is a natural process ...which might include opening ways to....bridge...
• <efeefe> ian_brasil: I see what you say, but I'm not sure that's enough to reach some point where things would actually happen
• <ian_brasil> well either bricolabs becomes a physical space a la pdc or a virtual one
• <vitorio> my comnment is out of date and now out of context - sorry
• <efeefe> ian_brasil: I see bricolabs' potential as much more in terms of articulation then proper tech stuff
• <jerneja> I mean is about skills, but also questions of emancipation
• <jerneja> articulation, exacetly
• <efeefe> but how to start?
• <efeefe> things sometimes seem stuck in some point
• <efeefe> like if everybody's waiting
• <efeefe> what are they/you waiting for?
• <jerneja> a passpartout...:)
• <jerneja> ok, qas a bit sarcastic...but hey i know what you mean

what is there to do apart from chat?

* <ian_brasil> well...what is there to do apart from chat a.t.m ?
* <efeefe> good question
* <efeefe> is there something?
* <jerneja> I am leaving...the chat..(not because there is nothing to do) .but i would like to think if there is a passpartout...:)
* <efeefe> what should we do to create something?
* <efeefe> are bricolabs too wide?
* <robvk> a country
* <efeefe> should we narow the focus to start?
* <efeefe> an island
* <efeefe> A BOAT, kruno!!
* <GJ> boat?
* <jerneja> i jump right into it
* <efeefe> hahah
* <robvk> a biig boat
* <jerneja> hhhuuu...yes
* <robvk> bricoboat
* <indra_indo> what for?
* <indra_indo> :)
* <robvk> br
* <efeefe> actually, one of the ideas for projects is to have a motorhome in europe
* <efeefe> indra_indo: to collect people all over the world
* <macaetano> ff, maybe the way is to start small and them to expand
* <jerneja> that can also cross rivers..?
* <efeefe> and promote itinerancies
* <macaetano> with a small set of ideias and concepts
* <novaes> 3 boats, we need back up
* <novaes> ;)
* <macaetano> and then to try to put them in practice
* <GJ> this one: http://www.sybarites.org/2006/05/08/marshall-titos-384-yacht-galeb-to-be-auctioned-off/

• <efeefe> boats & bridges & balls & beer
• <vitorio> the one problem i see is in trying to explain stuff to people who come from marginalised communities -- epic focuses lose them -- personally i like broad scope - but it is just from experience
• <indra_indo> ah ok, i think it's a nice concept, but it's too specific
• <jerneja> hhaaaahhaaa
• <jerneja> jjjeeea
• <robvk> whaoah tito's boat what a great plan i say this is plan a
• <efeefe> 384"?

i have the van

* <vitorio> i have the van!  i am planning to start next year - it is a large van - mini bus - really amazing space -- been a bvision and work in progress for some time - i am happy to put that into the equation - i want to start on a micro level in manchester with it this summer - so any advice is gladly received and then it is agenda to work with a group of people to take this stuff round europe -- it is run on vegetable oil and will have solar pan

• <robvk> i gotta go for an hour or so, catch you later

( <efeefe> woooooow

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• <efeefe> is it already running with vegetable oil?
• <vitorio> we need boats cos the world might have to live on them in a couple of years!!
• <efeefe> so, that's a goood
• <efeefe> novaes, colar nessa?
• <efeefe> vicky, let's make a brico project for the van?
• <novaes> robvk: see you this week?
• <efeefe> ;)
• <vitorio> its not a mini bus - it is merc 608

* <GJ> thats plan,, vans donkys, whtever, it can get into and out of boat. town of rijeka bought it and doesnt know what to do.. ministry of culure CRO as a partner, reconstructed boat, a lab.

• <efeefe> GJ: the city actuallt bought it?
• <GJ> boat can aslo exchange bigger quantaties of people
• <vitorio> it is sleeping at the moment - -a veyr long story - but it will be ready by april - - my friend does all the conversions and says mine is totally sorted for it!@
• <vitorio> it is sleeping at the moment - -a veyr long story - but it will be ready by april - - my friend does all the conversions and says mine is totally sorted for it!@
• <efeefe> and the comment of spending over 40mill to fix it?
• <GJ> not bought, but they damped it on them
• <efeefe> and will they have resources to fix it?
• <GJ> its old boat, noone has a vision what to do
• <GJ> some want a museum
• <GJ> but other won on elections recently :)
• <efeefe> do you think it is possible?

Brico-boat

* <efeefe> let's make a brico-lab inside it?
* <GJ> it could be researched

• <vitorio> totally! this is my dream of about 9 years - - without knowing about BCs then of course - - but people REALLY want it - - - and i know people who have kitted smaller vans recently ---- -i am happy to work in it whatever way you want - -- - the boat thing is really imoortant too for sure
• <GJ> with some ideas thiago had
• <GJ> and some contacts with ministry of culture CRO and town of rijeka it could work
• <GJ> and milions of euros heheheh
• <efeefe> GJ: very interesting
• <efeefe> but is it grounded?
• <efeefe> I mean, can the yacht go to the see?
• <GJ> of course not man
• <GJ> i dont do grounded stuff :)
• <GJ> :=
• <efeefe> hahaha
• <efeefe> ok
• <GJ> thats just idea,, has to be researched. but to brico on titos boat would be nice
• <GJ> its in the sea, and can be operated ofcourse..
• <GJ> have to run cach a train.
• <efeefe> ok
• <GJ> pls post me rest felipe
• <efeefe> I will publish the log somewhere
• <GJ> by all, hope we do this again soon,
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• <efeefe> so, that's it?
• <novaes> bricoboat, yes
• <novaes> ;)
• <efeefe> bricoboat and metamediamobile
• <efeefe> MimosaMadMax
• <efeefe> MetaMobileMedia
• <efeefe> M3
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• <efeefe> so, everybody free for drinks and all that
• <efeefe> unfortunately, no link from Lencois
• <efeefe> but anyway, 10+ people in an irc chat is a good attendance
• <efeefe> thank you all
• <efeefe> more soon